FAQs

is P4C a Movement just driven by junior members?

Our organizers come from all seniority bands, as do our supporters. We want member-driven change to protect and improve all of our careers, and as such we have to be inclusive of all ages and stages to be effective. We also believe our strength comes from understanding each other's issues throughout the seniority spectrum, across the fleets and between bases.

iF we join ALPA the Express Pilots will want common seniority, won’t they? Will it be CALPA all over again?

One of our core elements is knowledge, specifically learning from our past. One thing we learned from the breakup of CALPA, was that recognizing the importance of MEC autonomy and status as a legacy international carrier matters to Air Canada pilots. The governance and structure of ALPA International (ALPA-I) has adapted and changed over many decades to protect the individual rights of MECs, and recognize the specific contributions of each pilot group. Under the ALPA-I model, Air Canada Pilots would retain their autonomy as a distinct MEC and maintain control of our own contract and seniority list.  Furthermore, our voice as Air Canada pilots would be present at all levels of governance within ALPA-I, with access to strong decision making tools such as roll call voting (one vote for each pilot member).

As for the taboo subject of seniority integration, the Air Canada Express Pilots cannot announce a merged list of their own accord, nor can the ALPA Canada body. Only through a corporate merger can a seniority list integration be contemplated at ALPA-I, and even then only under specific conditions of operational integration of pilots and aircraft. We feel that this is an issue to carefully contemplate as we move forward, remembering the lessons of the past, but not succumbing to irrational fears about repeating it.

If P4C Elected candidates, do a full court press for ALPA, and we the pilots do NOT vote to leave ACPA...then what? Do they resign?

The ALPA International (ALPA-I) component of our platform gets a lot of attention, however this is just one piece of a larger core element: community. Community means full membership in the society of airline pilots and active participation in the broader labour movement. Institutions like IFALPA, the CLC, the Air Canada Council of Unions– and of course ALPA International– are all vehicles to bring our Air Canada pilot group together with other professional pilots and working people alike. We support the continuation of the discussions already started with ALPA-I with the aim of concluding negotiations on the terms of a merger in order to present to the Air Canada pilots for a vote. Beyond that, we support community as a prominent part of our strategic plan as an association, regardless of how many of our P4C candidates are elected, or what banner we might fly.

Has there been a conversation of perhaps getting ACPA and P4C together to discuss some hot topics? The last thing we need is more division- only the Company benefits from that!

Our group is not about division, far from it. Instead we often point back to  our core elements, specifically knowledge and engagement in our P4C communications. Within the ACPA structure, our Candidates and supporters, who were also ACPA committee members, pushed for enhanced communication. We purposely did not take a stance as a group on the Covid MOA #2. It was not our place, and doing so would have created the division mentioned. The only number that had meaning for our group is the 89% participation, which represents a high level of engagement by the pilots.

We all believe change is needed, that change is clearly stated on our website. This does not mean undermining the current MEC or its leadership, to do so would go against our own core principals. We do not believe in personal attacks, or spreading fear. Our message is one of hope and optimism for the future.

What would a timeline for joining ALPA look like? What are the thresholds for “A” carrier status?

P4C is calling for a completion of the ACPA unity initiative as soon as possible, however putting exact timelines on such a critical task is challenging as there are numerous parties involved. We believe that regardless of the possible pace of such a merger, we must commit to completing the process and ultimately give our pilots the final decision. As for “A Carrier” status, we have already agreed with ALPA-I that 4000 members, or 10 million (CAD) in dues is the threshold. P4C candidates would insist any future in ALPA International would include recognition as an “A Carrier” airline.

Are you trying to hurt ACPA or go after the senior members?

Absolutely not! We need solidarity between the seniors and juniors, DB and CWIPP, and across the bases. That means protecting each other’s benefits through the collective agreement and also understanding the cultures and outlooks that make these groups unique. We also believe in protecting the key parts of our organization, that means the talented pilot and staff experts in our various committees, in any possible evolution that might unfold as part of our plan forward. We acknowledge that Pilots For Change organizers and supporters feature some newer faces, and that there will be a spool-up process for reps that may not have LEC Chair experience. We also feel strongly that now is the time to pass the torch, for senior members to share their wisdom and knowledge, and for the up-and-coming members to channel their energy and enthusiasm to the work of pilot representation. 

Is this just a pro-ALPA campaign?

We are called Pilots For Change not Pilots For ALPA. While we believe that full union membership in ALPA International is important, we need to see positive change internally regardless of the banner above our association. While ACPA has made some progress in recent years reforming itself, there's still a lot of work to be done to achieve the goals we have laid out. ALPA is not a panacea or some kind of silver bullet, but as a large international union it does have many of the features we believe we need and have not yet been able to integrate into our own association. We believe unions, like ALPA, provide the framework and stability to help the Air Canada pilots serve our pilot group and administrate the contract with continuity and long-term stability. We also believe that in any association we must actively foster a culture that honours the expert advice and institutional knowledge that comes out of many decades of experience. Most importantly, regardless of the banner we fly above our association, a unified voice for pilots in Canada is critical at this juncture.

What about the committees and staff, what are you trying to change here?

Committee volunteers and staff are the backbone of our pilot group and should be protected. We are not looking to destroy the productive work of our dedicated volunteers or lose the institutional knowledge held by our staff that serve the pilots regardless of which way the political winds may blow. Our group is committed to empower the committees that do the hard work on behalf of the pilots, and hopefully give them greater access to the tools, support, networks and resources they need to succeed. Furthermore, in a future when we might be part of a larger union, like ALPA International, our dedicated staff would have increased security and protection through an in-house union protected by their own collective agreements. The CEO (or GM in ALPA terms) reports to the President and Executive Council composed of representatives across the association, not directly to the MEC. This further insulates staff from being swept up in the ebb and flow of MEC politics or experiencing undue pressure by the leadership they support. Looking at the road ahead, and the new dynamics of border closures and travel restrictions, we will need to make sure that any future in ALPA International includes dedicated Canadian resources, managed and directed by Canadians. 

This seems like an end run, or like the “group of 27”, is it?

No, we see ourselves similar to the pilots that formed ACPA in the first place. We are trying to push for positive changes in a grassroots movement collecting support from Air Canada pilots from all seniority levels. It is being built from the bottom up. Even if the candidates we support are not elected, we want these ideas to become part of our pilot group’s vision for the future. The so-called “group of 27” was a group of senior pilot leadership petitioning on a single issue related to collective bargaining. Pilots for Change is a rank-and-file member driven movement intended to spark discussion about the future, and support candidates for election who share our vision. We want to exact change through popular support, and we want our movement to encompass as many of our members as possible. This means fostering engagement through imagining a better association, and supporting a slate of candidates that the membership democratically elects. We want to produce a mandate for change, not undermine our current leadership, diminish our association or push for an end run of any sort.

Does this group just want to take care of millenials or new-hire issues?

Many parts of our collective agreement need to be addressed. Improvements can help junior and senior pilots alike, and even the company– the very definition of collective benefit. These improvements could include pairing construction, PBS constraints, DPGs, vacation issues, reserve rules and of course flat pay. New hire pilots are most often exposed to these substandard rules and can feel they have little power to make things better. However, we think focusing on predictability of work, equitable pay amongst all pilots (whether in the crew bunk or at the terminal Tim’s between flights), ensuring fairness in preferential bidding and providing a basic expectation of professional-level wages is foundational to a true collective agreement, regardless of a pilots age or stage.

What is pattern bargaining? Can it be effective in a country with only one legacy carrier? 

Air Canada terms and conditions benchmark in some ways higher than those of WestJet, Air Transat or other Canadian carriers.  However, in the last 10 years we are increasingly under pressure from carriers that wouldn’t typically be considered legacy carriers, but who’s wages and conditions are negatively affecting ours. This was the impetus for the formation of Rouge, and we believe this is proof that a pattern bargaining dynamic already exists in Canada. This necessitates that we take a fresh look at how we participate in that community. Investing in harmonized bargaining strategies, supporting groups who are struggling to elevate their contracts, and defending against non-unionized carriers are all parts of the pattern bargaining strategy for unions. This also means as Air Canada pilots we must invest our time, our resources, and our creativity into the process of elevating the floor of the industry in Canada in order to defend our own working conditions. We should also remember that “the biggest” doesn't always equal “the best”, in fact some smaller carriers have lots to offer in terms of best practices when it comes to contract language. We believe in simple terms, in every aspect of a pilot contract, the “bottom of the pattern sets the pattern.”

The core supporters of Pilots for Change seem to be junior pilots, do they get how ACPA really works?

You will find that this group encompasses a diverse breadth of experience from a wide range of seniority, fleets, backgrounds, age groups etc. Many of us have been involved in organizing efforts at other carriers and have seen first hand the value of what can be achieved through real, unified membership engagement. Several of our core supporters have deep histories in ACPA, some from very different political stripes, but have been unified in their desire to see real, grassroots, member-driven change in our association. Their understanding of ACPA and its history has helped inform the newer members on where to focus attention, what must be preserved, and what might be possible in the future. Furthermore, we believe that the “fresh eyes” of our junior members gives us new perspectives and is what makes an association more inclusive, dynamic and creative.

in a merger, wouldn’t ALPA just tie our hands?

Airline mergers can be one of the most chaotic and disruptive times for any pilot. The uncertainty around seniority integration, merged contract language and altered career expectations can be overwhelming. We have seen the lasting negative effects of drawn-out seniority battles between multiple unions in our own history and it contributed to years of infighting between our pilots. But as always there is hope. Others have walked this road and have had some measure of success bringing pilot groups under the same seniority list and collective agreement. ALPA carriers have adopted a merger policy that acknowledges the nature of airline mergers and attempts to bring groups together with unity of purpose. The road map is not a perfect one, but reminds us that all pilots are professionals deserving of consideration, regardless of the uniform they wear, or where their careers have landed them. We agree, it is by working together that we will advance our profession and protect our collective interests.

Why are you focused on seniority, are you totally against socialized bidding?

Many newly organized carriers make seniority a central part of their contract because it is the best way to ensure fairness in the distribution of work schedules, upgrades and benefits like vacation. While socialized or “fair share” systems can attempt to honour personal requests for scheduling, the power ultimately lies with the company instead of the pilot in the determination of schedules. While there may be significant commercial benefits to “fair share” systems, we believe socialization at Air Canada has become a way for pilots to ignore the fundamental shortcomings in our collective agreement: flat pay, backwards reserve rules, unproductive blocks and PBS optimizing. Seniority has been given a bad name for junior members, and LOU74 has become a band-aid alternative. We believe that a seniority based system can work for all members when these major contract pain-points are addressed, and divisive contract language like LOU74 is eventually eliminated.

Union dues at ALPA are higher, what would we be getting?

Yes they are, but in exchange pilots get the benefit of belonging to a larger group with greater resources. This also means the majority of professional pilots in Canada would be under one union. The benefits are clear; a bigger voice, a unified voice, with a greater focus on Canada. Current ACPA rates are 1.37% compared to current ALPA rates of 1.85%, but the resources one receives when part of a larger association are considerable.  Once a member of ALPA, a pilot group has access to the vast resources of the Air Safety Organization (ASO) which is well respected throughout the world.  In the event that a tragic event occurs at Air Canada, ASO guides and assists pilots from the moment the accident occurs, anywhere worldwide, to when the final accident report is released. ALPA also has a significant resource in the Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) department. Sharing information on contracts and having a deep understanding of other airlines’ operations across North America matters when it comes time to sit down with the company during negotiations.  Knowledge is power– and when bargaining teams arrive at the table with solid numbers to back up demands they can achieve long lasting gains.  Those gains are often patterned at other ALPA carriers creating a rising tide of industry-wide improvements. Beyond safety and bargaining, large unions like ALPA provide a long list of support services to members and pilot leaders, including; training programs, organizing teams, communications support, representation and legal support, government relations programs, IFALPA membership, pooled contingency/strike funds, pilot health services and more. In any decision about ALPA, Air Canada pilots would need to have full understanding of the benefits and have ample opportunity to engage ALPA officials with questions, concerns and ideas before making any final decision on joining.

We’re not the only ones thinking about a move to a bigger union, see what the American Airlines pilots are asking about ALPA.

ALPA is an American Union, IS it true you can’t do anything without the approval of Washington?

ALPA is actually an international union of many distinct pilot groups (MECs) from across Canada and the United States. They share a common banner and a voice globally through IFALPA, in Ottawa through ALPA Canada and in Washington through ALPA US. However the individual pilot groups like Delta, United and Westjet all manage their own affairs much as ACPA does for the Air Canada pilots today. As members we would have the benefit of being a part of all of these distinct bodies while maintaining our own culture as a pilot group. Neither ALPA USA or ALPA Canada would have direct control over how we run our own MEC for the betterment of Air Canada pilots any more than we have control over how the Delta MEC or WestJet MEC is run. What binds the groups is the ALPA constitution and bylaws that everyone abides by– the glue that holds over 60,000 pilots together. Furthemore, it is an association that has been in existence since 1931 with robust governance and mutual oversight practices that have evolved over many decades. Under the ALPA banner we would be able to take advantage of a robust political framework, have the stability of a long-standing, trusted brand and the support of experienced fellow pilot groups from across the continent.

How did ALPA benefit the WestJet Pilot Group?

Click here to read the full article from a Westjet pilot and ALPA volunteer…

more answers to your questions coming soon!